“When you avoid talking about what isn’t working, you’re also avoiding what will fix it.” via Time to Kill the Elephants by Tamsen McMahon
I like Mike Ferry right now.
Yes, I’m aware that some are bashing Mike Ferry for his comments during the smackdown debate between Ferry and Matthew Ferrara at the Coldwell Banker Generation Blue Conference. You can watch the video here, if you haven’t seen it already. I understand that it has created a bit of a stir. What I don’t understand, however, is what all the fuss is about.
I’ll will say this, however, it’s a poorly framed debate. A similar, less theatrical “debate” took place at CRS Sell-A-Bration. As I watched that one, I sent out this tweet, “The “traditional vs technology” debate should die. It’s about the conversation, not technology. #sab11″. The question isn’t whether technology or social media is better than “traditional” methods of creating the opportunity for conversation, the question is whether the right, smarter, better conversations are being created either way.
I’ve watched this “controversial” smackdown twice now, just to be sure I wasn’t missing something. I don’t think I am. Yes, Ferry made some sweeping generalities about social media, as did Ferrara in the opposite direction, but they appeared to be for effect, designed to drive home his point. And his point seemed pretty clear and pretty simple to me, “talk to people.” His arguments against social media were not directed at behaviors that would fall into his or my definition of talking to people, they were directed at behaviors that he felt were a waste of time. And I’m not convinced that anything he had to say was all that far from the truth.
There’s an elephant in the room.
What I am convinced of, however, is that there’s an elephant in the room of social media marketing for REALTORS®. And it appears that some people are willing to treat it as a welcome guest, continuing to feed it and keep it healthy. The elephant is that social media, as a main way of gaining business, is not working effectively for as many people as it should. The way to fix what is broken is not to ignore the messengers who point it out.
“When you avoid talking about what isn’t working, you’re also avoiding what will fix it.” Those of us who see value in this space need to embrace the differences highlighted in this smackdown and work in the trench with those who hold counter perspectives and strive hard to come out of the trench better for the time spent. Those who shun everything old in favor of everything new are as off-base as those who shun everything new in favor of everything old.
I’ve never met Mike Ferry, not even in passing. I’ve never read a single word he’s written or heard him speak until this video. We’re not even Facebook friends. So, I have no idea whether we share similar values. But, I’m willing to bet that if Mike Ferry and I spent a day together, in full, open and respectful dialogue, we’d both come out of the day smarter for the time. And new, improved ways of using social media would emerge from that conversation.
Because it will always be about the conversation, not the medium.
[photo credit: David Blackwell via Flickr]
Aloha Jeff.
You are absolutely correct. Real Estate is a RELATIONSHIP business. It doesn’t really matter how that relationship is built and maintained, but without relationship, there is no sale. Period. Social media is not a substitute for traditional face-to-face interaction, but for a practitioner such as myself that literally lives 3000+ miles away from most of my clients (I’m in Hawaii, most of my clients are on the west coast of “America”) social media has become a quick and easy way to maintain those relationships where seeing my clients in person is simply illogical, impractical and expensive! Warm aloha, Katie Minkus, R(B). Broker-in-Charge, Big Island Sales, Hawaii Life Real Estate Brokers.
I’m with you on this one 100%.
well said! I do know who Mike Ferry is – and although do not follow him nor do I subscribe to any of his services I do know he has some very valid points – it seems to me that many of our comments and articles are based from one line of what a person says and not the entire conversation. I firmly believe that social media is a must – however – I think face to face, direct mail and getting to know the consumer know what works best for them – not what works best for the agent – I see some of my friends online – spend hours upon hours and wonder are they really making social media work or are they just wasting their time by entertaining themselves – don’t get me wrong we are all entitled to a little fun, relaxation and connecting with friends – but at some point that needs to take a back seat to old fashion work! #justsaying – no matter how you feel – admit it social media can be a huge time suck – now I am off to sell a house – that’s my job not maintaining a facebook relationship or sending out tweets – have a spectacular day! (by the way – I think you would like Mike Ferry – I have met him years ago on a personal level)
While the video was painful to watch, the fact that many agents have been *incorrectly* trained on how to use social media (trained to put listings online or only be a resource without connecting with people – TALKING to people) does impact the success of social media in the real estate industry. Don’t have to spend the entire day on FB or Twitter or LinkedIn or any other platform. However, connecting with people that organically connect with you (without push marketing) is a great way for business to come your way. I can attest to that, having closed business from people who decided they could trust me enough, who liked me enough, who could see that I know my real estate and who could see that I genuinely liked connecting with people.
So – if agents continue to ignore social media, or if agents continue to use social media as push marketing then no, social media will not work as well as it ought for them. Consistent, caring presence and talking about your and their lives, which includes, at times, your and their business, being a resource without being a bot will most certainly yield business. Other rules and regs about social media aren’t quite as salient as these. Connect and grow relationships, just like the old days (except this is online), and you will have organically-occurring business. Plus, you will have friends and enemies and business partners and… Just like any relationship situation.
I agree with you on this one Jeff. It is all about the conversation and that’s why I love all social media tools (twitter, facebook, stumbleupon, linkedin) because they help me to have conversations with people I normally wouldn’t, all over the world.
Jeff, I have been following these conversations for a while now and I agree with you whole heartedly. It is about the conversation no matter what the media.
Real estate is about talking to people, and the more the better. Phone, e-mail, face to face, cocktail party, kids soccer game, service club, PTA, skype, video chat, thank you cards, or smoke signals – you had better be communicating.
Seems there are way to many folks out there, paid and unpaid, promoting social media as the fix for everything that is wrong with real estate. It is like the QR code hype, just when you think it has died, someone discovers the latest thing since sliced bread.
My company utilizes almost all the technology you can imagine, but without my previous 20 years real estate experience, it really would not make much difference.
Following both Mike and you for sometime I think that would be a very interesting day of conversation. Hope that happens.
Thanks for the fresh perspective, I wondered what that large mammal was doing in my living room. Now if I can just him out into the hallway…
Jeffrey, I just think this traditional vs social/tech debate is always so poorly framed. It’s a silly debate. You can’t do most of the “traditional” stuff without some form of tech today. I’d rather see the debate framed around what works and what doesn’t work? Behaviors/disciplines are required for either, etc. It’s polarizing. And I believe a lot of really great stuff could be learned if we embraced the differences in approach and found ways to create bridges for both sides to cross.
Jeff, Time will solve that problem as folks come to realize its not a magic bullet. I am constantly trying out new things, getting rid of things that don’t work, and reading a bunch of smart people, yourself included. Thanks for the excellent conversation.
That is a beautiful sentiment Jeff. I would love to see that, but unfortunately I see the desire not to share what works with others on a daily basis. I have spent the last year, at my own expense, trying to get people to listen to me – to break down the doors of the clubs and bring what I have found is working, and what others have found working – to share it – there is enough opportunity for everyone to succeed. But far too often people don’t want to risk their personal perch to elevate those around them. It makes no sense.
I train agents in calling expireds, I train agents in how to knock on a door, how to take floor calls and how to engage on the social platforms. There is always something new to try and test, being innovative is key to success, but being focused on income producing activities and not wasting valuable times is also important.
Today I was in Baltimore and did 3 different sessions. One thing I always say to agents – and since I am one, I can say it – agents are lazy, we don’t want to have a set schedule, we want to come and go as we please. Unless an agent realizes that they are accountable to themselves and their family, it is far too easy to fool themselves into thinking they are “doing the activities”. Those that don’t succeed in this business don’t try. I think Ben Kinney would also agree with me.
Thanks Jeff! You’re awesome.
And Jeffrey, you do make me think too! I like that!! =)
Isn’t conversation amazing 🙂
Sup Jeff…
having been in that audience, I feel I have a unique perspective on this. I will say, however, that within 2 minutes of this so called “Smackdown”, I turned to my neighbors and said “This is gonna be bad!”. You see, I already knew that Mathew would have brilliant points, and copious notes full of validity on his side, but when you stand up in front of 2,000 to 3,000 people that rarely matters. What does, is what Mike has in “Spades” and that is Stage presence, charisma, and sarcastic wit.
Bottom line = The message got lost in the production…that being, we are in a moment in time where Old School Selling Skills and New Technology Skills are BOTH necessary! In fact, if you were half Mathew & half Mike, you would be a damn good RE Agent =) You would fish in a huge pond for Prospects, and find “hook” a ton of them, and you would convert those catches to contracts at a high rate using proven closing skills.
Coldwell Banker sent Mathew in to a debate he could not win, and that may have derailed the message, but this message is so clear and so important that it will never be stopped…live, learn, listen to progress or get the hell out of the way!
TheRECoach
Your comment got trapped in spam, I wish I had seen it earlier.
That said, I don’t think the moment you’re describing is going away. There will always be a need for both.
I’ve always felt that anything works, and nothing doesn’t.
So do something.
Over the years, I’ve seen Realtors jump into the new-new thing, searching for the holy grail of business development.
For me, the most successful things have been referrals from clients and Realtors, our web site, client events, mail farming, and open houses.
And for me (your mileage will likely vary) the least productive things have been time spent on facebook, blogging, and twitter. My assumption has always been that I wasn’t doing it correctly … and that’s likely correct. I also think that time spent on social networking can be (is?) a BFOT – Big Fat Waste of Time, which takes time from core business development activities. But it can be fun, so that’s OK.
Our successful things give us the resources to spend time on the unsuccessful things, so I’ll continue experimenting with the unsuccessful things to see how I can make them successful. It’s kind of fun, and I do keep in contact with several of my clients that way.
Do a simple experiment. Think of the most productive agents in your market area, and those you know from meetings, seminars. and conventions. What activities do you feel that they’re engaged in which generates business for them. Then sort them by most productive to least productive. Where do you think their social networking activities falls in the spectrum?
Do I think social networking can be valuable? Sure. But I think it’s important to ask yourself … what’s the best use of my time .. right now?
And asking myself that, it’s time to see who wants to sell or buy a home.
Ira Serkes
Ira, add another quote to my favorites…
“I’ve always found that anything works, and nothing doesn’t”
Genius
Thanks! … you need both lines for the entire quote.
——————-
I’ve always felt that anything works, and nothing doesn’t.
So do something.
——————-
Ira
Mike Ferry is a shock jock whose basic message hasn’t changed over move than the quarter of a century that I’ve known (about) him. He intends to make you think, examine what you are doing and get to the core of what is wrong.
I’ve attended many of his sessions over the years and appreciate him for what he is. I also must credit him for helping me learn how to “close & qualify” customers. It’s simple, easy to do and not the least bit offensive.
Come to think, it’s probably even sociallyacceptable!
kk
Jeff,
Spot-on, as usual. Pick your platform: politics, religion…social media. We get nowhere when we can’t have an open debate on the issues, unconstrained by political correctness and other similar conventions. Let’s talk, even if we have to agree to disagree at the end. Thanks, Jeff.
Terry
Hi Jeff,
Good points and I want to clarify. I do not intend to bash Mike Ferry, I have merely tried to have a conversation with him for nearly a year about the value of social media as a prospecting tool if used properly in conjunction with the “traditional” methods. This is where communications has gone, is going and beyond. The conversation can start on the phone, online, in person – as long as there is a conversation, and as Mike would emphasize an appointment.
Some of my points were poorly chosen and some of my statements crass. I was rather emotionally charged at that moment.
Having a front row seat for the “discussion”, I honestly have to say I was learning toward Matthew before it ever started, but – if not for the poorly chosen comments by Mike (which are all well within character for his method which forces the agents competitive nature to surge forward) – I think I would have easily been swayed.
The whole point of the encounter at GenBlue was to bring the agents to the realization that there is no magic bullet, that you can’t rely solely on social media nor on the traditional methods of the old days.
Communications and real estate sales are evolving, as they always have – Coldwell Banker is over 100 years old, I think we have seen incredible changes in that time, and in the next 100 years it is hard to imagine what will come.
If anyone has heard me speak to agents, I make it very clear that the social media spaces are just another prospecting tool if properly used they can get lead generation, but that it is about engagement and interaction, about sharing and helping others, serving their local community, but that they must restrict the time per day they use it – the rule I teach is 30×2 – 30 minutes twice a day. Nothing on social media is urgent, it can all wait. But just as the mega agent practices scripts, has team meetings and contacts their SOI regularly, you also need to nurture this aspect of your business.
I know it appears I am out to bash Mike, I only bash one thing – his unwillingness to consider the value of this evolution in communications and how embracing it and understanding it could also lead to further market dominance by many of his coaching students.
I obviously need to do an update to my personal blog and my comments. If I could get 1 hour alone with Mike Ferry I would only want to convince him of the value and ask for him to give it a chance. He is a savvy business man, so I don’t understand his position since, to me, it is completely illogical to dismiss something he obviously hasn’t had the opportunity to learn about from those that actually “get it”.
What did with his email to his coaching students in attacking Coldwell Banker? That is what caused my reaction, prior to that letter I was going to let sleeping dogs lie, but that was tacky at best, tasteless in my world. You don’t take someone’s money then attack them in that manner. Declasse at best.
Perhaps my point was lost in my post… Mike brings value, Mike brings success, but why eliminate the option of an additional 25% success by dismissing what is working – when done properly?
Thanks Jeff! You are always so thoughtful, and honest. I like that about you. =)
Maya
Maya, you have a history with Mike. You’ve also just launched a site/service that puts you in competition with him in some ways. And, you work for the company this was all directed at. So it’s going to be harder for you to not have an emotionally charged reaction. You have an emotional connection to it. I would, however, characterize your post as bashing. And I would fight for your right to do that if you choose. It’s your blog. You get to set the tone, not me or anyone else.
I have absolutely no history with Mike. I had never read a single word of his writing or heard him speak before watching this video. I have no clue what his personal values are. I only know of him from what I’ve read so far in Tom Ferry’s book. So, I don’t have any predisposition toward him. It makes it a whole lot easier for me to remain emotionally distant from the article.
That said, and with zero inside knowledge, if I were a betting man, I’d bet his dismissal of social media is less about his not “getting it” and more about focus. He is getting his coaching clients to focus on the things he feels are most important and leave the rest behind. That’s not a stretch for me to understand. There’s a lot to get lost in with social media. And, I’m sorry, but I don’t buy the 30 minutes, twice a day thing. I know people like to talk about it, but I don’t see it in practice very often. You can’t dictate the pace of some conversations. Your own twitter stream is testimony to that.
Do I believe a method could be crafted to achieve a higher reward for Mike’s clients by utilizing some aspects of the social space. Yes. Do I think he might be able to educate both of us on a few things as well? Yep.
Good points, you are a wise man. But to a point, I do not work FOR Coldwell Banker, I am a 1099 contractor who has her license there, CB has never paid me any monies other than my earned commissions and most of those were thru Caparo Real Estate until a recent acquisition.
You know me well enough to know I am emotional about lots of things, and you know first hand I obsess on why people do certain things… I believe we had a discussion in Bill’s car last year and your wisdom that day is something I think of often and I am grateful for that.
I think I would be honored to be able to talk to Mike Ferry, he is a savvy business man and has a very sharp mind, I would love to hear, off the record, why he feels so strongly. I am open minded. 🙂
I also don’t think my site competes with anyone really, the more the merrier, one resource alone does not a career development path make. I think people can get things from many like places and decide what works for them as individuals.
I just strive to find the tranquility you seem to have, and the post I wrote defies how I usually feel, to each his own and so it goes.
You’re amazing, in many ways – I admire you, Rocky and your whole family. I appreciate you calling me out when you think it is necessary, I respect that and you therefore for your words I often pause and consider.
Thanks! Maya
Thanks, Maya.
Jeff, you have inspired me to write a post in response to your brilliant article, elephant foot and all!
http://www.realtyv2.com/2011/03/in-response-to-the-elephant-in-the-social-media-real-estate-room/
I’m truly honored, Jeff. Thank you.
While I was not a fan of the brashness of Mike, I do feel and I mentioned this to Matthew Ferrara after that Mike did have some very valid points in his approach. I believe the best type of business plan integrates both sides of the story in. I also think it goes back to an analogy I heard someone (you) mention once regarding cutting the grass and the tool you pick to do so.
Each person has a tool that works for them and their situation. The key is not so much learning about all the tools, but more so finding the tools that work well for your business and use them to their fullest extent.
I also think that if Mike did give some of these online tools a try and integrated them into his business on a level that works for him it could take everything he does to an entirely different level. He’s very successful without technology, imagine how much more he could be by bringing in just a few small tools to make things a little more streamlined.
Jeremey, I agree with what you’re saying and your comment is bringing to mind a great post I read yesterday, “Do Campaign Failures, High-Profile Firings Signal the End of Social Media?” – specifically one line from it.
Baskin writes, “You might think or be told that Pepsi and Burger King just failed to “do social right,” which is scarily reminiscent of the arguments made in support of the two-thirds or more of CRM implementations that failed at the start of the century. This argument requires that we presume “correct” social would work, which tracks back to my last point.”
We make assumptions that “social” will work in situations like this. For some, it might not.
It was very hard to hear the audio.
I attend several Mike Ferry seminars 15-20 years ago. What he teaches works.
When someone asked a question along the lines of “how would you get started right now” the first thing which came to mind was prospecting Expired & FSBO. Pure Mike Ferry. Contacting my sphere of influence and working social media would be low on my list of things to do. I’d do them, just make other things a higher priority.
But just because it works doesn’t mean that other things don’t work.
“Anything works, nothing doesn’t. Do something”
What I remember about Mike Ferry then (perhaps he’s changed) is that his attitude was “My way or the highway” and his scorn about many other trainers. I’ve a feeling that he also felt that web sites would also be a waste of time. Might still feel that way – I don’t know. My data is 15-20 years old, and be happy to be corrected if wrong.
Jeff – You wrote:
“But, I’m willing to bet that if Mike Ferry and I spent a day together, in full, open and respectful dialogue, we’d both come out of the day smarter for the time. And new, improved ways of using social media would emerge from that conversation.”
I only know Mike Ferry from his presentation persona, and have no idea what he’s like in 1:1 conversation.
I’d be very interested in seeing that kind of dialogue between the two of you … but it’s hard for me to imagine there would be any dialogue between the two of you. From Mike’s presentation persona (once again, from 15-20 years ago) a thought came across my mind “Thou shalt not have any Real Estate trainers before me”
Think Larry Ellison, only without the humility.
I actually don’t think that social media is a must. I think it can be a useful way to keep in contact with clients, but it’s simply one way. And it seems to be the current incarnation of “Direct Response Marketing” – the current holy grail that so many agents are spending time on because it’s one more thing which could work.
I think there are a lot of people spending way too much time on social media (yes, I’m talking to me) when it would be much more productive prospecting and following up on leads.
And I’m not a Mike Ferry fan.
So .. what should a real estate do?
Something! And once you’ve done something … do something else!
Ira
I’m going to weigh in here regardless that I don’t have a connection to either Matt or Mike. However, I have watched and actively participated in the changes that have come our way during the last five years. Like you and Maya, I teach agents how to utilize social media to BUILD UPON their businesses. I think one would be hard-pressed to boldly state that you could ‘build’ your business on the social media platform.
I’m a NINJA trained REALTOR so, belly-button-to-belly-button is the way that I built my business. Having several high energy debates (I don’t want to say ‘heated’ because they were far from that!) with my NINJA coach, I think that he finally realizes that my base IS my sphere and utilizing social media to maintain that sphere and expand those relationships is a MUST. No, you don’t have to live and breathe social media, in fact, you should NOT do so.
Expanding my sphere via social media but, not focusing on it completely is how my business has flourished in this crazy economy. I brought my sphere who enjoy SM to the party and the rest are still contacted via phone, email, an occasional visit at the local coffee shop or lunch at their favorite diner. (And no, my phone isn’t on during lunch!).
I see both sides of the debate but, disagree with both as well. Implementing both face-to-face as well as social media strategies is the key to success in this business–at least now, in 2011!